The Atlas Society Asks Anthony Pompliano

Anthony Pompliano is the author of How To Live An Extraordinary Life, a compilation of 65 letters to his two young children (with his wife Polina, a previous guest on The Atlas Society Asks), drawing on lessons learned in his life as a soldier, entrepreneur, investor, and founder & CEO of Professional Capital Management. A well-known Bitcoin investor, Pompliano joined CEO Jennifer Grossman on December 4, 2024, to discuss his book and his thoughts as Bitcoin passes its historic $100K mark—and also shares what he loves about Ayn Rand’s literature and philosophy. Watch the entire video HERE or check the transcript below. 

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JAG: Jennifer Anju Grossman

AP: Anthony Pompliano

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JAG: Hey, everyone, and welcome to the 230th episode of The Atlas Society Asks. My name is JAG. I'm CEO of The Atlas Society. And I'm very excited to welcome Anthony Pompliano, author of How to Live an Extraordinary Life, a compilation of 65 letters to his two young children, sharing the lessons he's learned as a soldier, as an investor, and founder and CEO of Professional Capital Management. Anthony, thanks for joining us.

AP: Thanks so much for having me.

JAG: And as mentioned, you have a hard act to follow. Of course, we had your wife, Polina, on a while ago to talk about her book Hidden Genius. So, that was part of your hidden genius, I guess, marrying somebody smarter than you?

AP: Well, when my wife wrote a book, I figured that I would have to write a book. But now, my mission is to sell one more copy than her. So, we'll see. I'm very far behind, so we'll see if I can catch up.

JAG: Well, I don't know, I feel like I have somewhat divided loyalties here since I absolutely adore Polina. But, we'll see. What if we can help out a brother? So, you and I were chatting a little bit before we went live, and you apparently are relatively well-versed in Ayn Rand's work or have which of the novels, and which have you read, and what did that mean to you?

One of the aspects of [Ayn Rand's] work that to me seems maybe to have gotten lost over the years, but is now making a resurgence is this idea of rationality and going after your own personal beliefs, your own self-interest. That's how free markets are supposed to work.

AP: Yes, well, I’ve always got to be careful. If I'm talking to you, then saying that I am well-read or an expert is going to be dangerous. But no, look, I think that this idea of individualism and capitalism, obviously, I think, runs very deeply in my belief system. If you think about what it means today with things like Bitcoin, it's code really, embracing those ideas or those ideas being written into code. And I think actually one of the aspects of the work that to me seems maybe to have gotten lost over the years, but is now making a resurgence is this idea of rationality and going after your own personal beliefs, your own self-interest. That's how free markets are supposed to work. That's how economies are supposed to work. So, anytime that you get market intervention, there usually are problems created or crises pop up. The fact that we return to those free markets, allow people to pursue their self interest, it reinforces the idea of capitalism, and I think that's pretty good for the world.

JAG: Well, as somebody who's maybe not so well-versed, you summed up her main ideas perfectly. And I think the other thing that I take away at this moment in time is recapturing a celebration of the Atlases in our midst: the geniuses, the creators, the innovators, and realizing that we need to celebrate them, uplift them, try to emulate them, join them, rather than tearing them down, which is a mark of a not only an inferior mind, but also a very deeply insecure person. So, we're going to dive into your book and the lessons you wish to impart to your children. But maybe we can start with the lessons you learned from your parents, either explicitly or implicitly, through the way that they raised you.

AP: It's very interesting when you think about it; my dad once said to me, as you get older, I'll get smarter. And I remember thinking, yeah, and a couple years ago, I called him and I said, “You were right, you have gotten smarter as I've gotten older.” But if you look at the lessons that I probably took away that have had the most impact in my life, they were never things where my father or mother sat me down and explicitly told me: do this, do that. Instead, it was things that they showed me. One of the lessons was anytime that I ever wanted something when I was younger, my dad would look around and basically make us do something so that we could get money to go to the movie theater or have food with our friends or money to go out with our friends or something like that. And that just implicitly instills this idea that you can do something, and then you get an economic reward. Just seeing that over and over and over again was pretty big. The second thing is I remember my parents telling me that my brothers and I could fight inside the house and argue and do all the things that brothers do, but sticking together outside of the house was a pretty important lesson. And then, I think that probably the biggest implicit lesson was that our parents just cared. They cared about us. They loved us. We knew that through their actions. Anytime that you can show that to a kid, I think it just puts them on a better path and is somewhat of a competitive advantage in life for that child.

JAG: Yes, I would say that for me, probably one of the biggest lessons that my parents instilled in me and my two siblings was that of a work ethic, and that was done because they were both super hard working and we didn't know anything else. And that's a value that clearly you're trying to impart to your children, and it comes across in the pages of your book.

One more question about your parents. How did they react when, at 17, you announced you were going to go into the military?

AP: That was an interesting conversation. At 17, you can't sign the papers yourself. You need your parents to approve it and sign as your guardian. I remember, I thought I was being smart, and I brought the papers to my dad first, and he immediately said, I don't want anything to do with this. You go talk to your mom. I'm not going to be the one who gets in trouble here. So I went and I talked to my mom, and she immediately was very against it. Every mother, I think, is worried about their child, their safety, all that stuff.

But probably the bigger conversation was when I first told them that I was getting deployed to Iraq; frankly, I didn't have it in me to tell them exactly what we were going to do. So, for a while, I continued to tell them that I was just going to be delivering the mail.

Over time, it took a couple days, but I think she got comfortable with the idea that maybe it'd be good for me, maybe I would learn some leadership lessons, maybe I'd get some discipline and have some structure and all of that. So, she eventually signed the papers. But probably the bigger conversation was when I first told them that I was getting deployed to Iraq; frankly, I didn't have it in me to tell them exactly what we were going to do. So, for a while, I continued to tell them that I was just going to be delivering the mail and don't worry, I wouldn't be in danger. Frankly, I don't know if they believed me or not, but it was an unspoken thing. If I say that I'm delivering the mail and you pretend you think I'm going to be delivering the mail, then we don't have to talk about anything else. And maybe that was a better way to handle all of the nuances of that situation.

JAG: Well, given your athletic prowess and all of that, I'm probably sure they didn't believe that you were delivering the mail, but you were doing other things, including some dangerous things, and you incorporate your experience in the army into some of the lessons you share with your kids, including the idea that, quote, luck isn't real.

Agency means that you have responsibility, and whether you get the outcome you want out of life or not really then comes down to what actions did you take?

AP: Helped us understand that it's the single most controversial letter in the entire book, but probably the most important one, which is, the best example is, let's say, you and I are walking across the street, we both get hit by a bus and we both lose our leg. If somebody comes to visit us in the hospital and they come up to your bedside and say, what happened? You may say, I was so unlucky. I was walking across the street, I got hit by a bus and I lost my leg. They then walk over to my bed and they say, well, what happened? And I say, I am so lucky to be alive. So, the lesson from that is, although we're the same people walking across the street, same situation and same outcome, we have two completely different versions of luck. And it's because luck is not a real thing, it's something that we create in our minds, it's a psychological concept, that you can actually change your luck by simply thinking differently. So, if you can change something by the way you think, rather than by having to take action in the world, then that means that it's not an actual real thing. It's just a psychological concept. The reason why understanding that luck is not real is important is because once you realize that luck is something that humans invented to explain away things that they didn't want to talk about, you then realize that everything in your life is either explained by probability or it is explained by your actions. And so it gives you agency to go and change your life. There's people every single day that are born into great situations and born into bad situations. There's people who have made choices in their life that put them on a good path or put them on a bad path. But ultimately, at any point in your life, you can decide to take actions that put you in a better position than you are today. But that agency means that you can't simply sit and blame the fact that, oh, the world happened to me, or I was born into the situation. Agency means that you have responsibility, and whether you get the outcome you want out of life or not really then comes down to what actions did you take? And a lot of people are scared of that, and so they rely on explaining away by being lucky or unlucky.

JAG: Yes, agency is a really strong core value that we focus on at The Atlas Society. And it ties into gratitude, which I also find woven throughout all of the lessons that you share in the book. And I feel that gratitude helps us to reclaim at least part of our agency, because it's a way of looking at the world, all of the things that you have going right for you. And even if your situation is really bad, being able to grab on to some of those things that are going right for you, I think can help to launch you into feeling that you have more control over your environment and that there's actions that you can take to improve your situation. One of my favorite quotes about luck is Branch Rickey's “luck is the residue of design.” And, of course, getting hit by a bus, as long as you're aware of your surroundings, maybe there's not much that you can do about that, but a lot of the things that happen to us when people say, oh, he has good luck, he has bad luck, a lot of it is our preparation, the habits that we cultivate over the years. Speaking of luck, you also had this wonderful anecdote in the book about the Chinese farmer. Would you share that? Because that really stuck with me in terms of having the right attitude.

AP: Yes. For people who hang out with my wife and I, they'll probably hear at some point over the years, one of us say to the other: Chinese farmer. It is this parable, which basically describes a Chinese farmer who has a bunch of wild horses and the wild horses run away one day and his neighbors come over and say, wow, you're so unlucky that your horses ran away. And a couple days later, a couple of wild horses run back and the neighbors come over and they say, wow, you're so lucky that the horses came back. And then a few days after that, his kid is riding the horse, about 12 years old, and he falls off the horse and breaks his arm. And so they come and the neighbors say, wow, you're so unlucky your kid fell. And he says, maybe. And then all of a sudden the war breaks out and the army shows up, and they say, hey, you are so lucky that the soldiers did not take your son because he had a broken arm. And the farmer says, maybe. And so the whole idea here is you don't actually know whether an event is good or bad until you have the benefit of hindsight. There's many times in my life, my wife's life, and many other people’s where you think something is bad, but it ends up being good. A great example of this is, I think I use it in the book, I know somebody who made a lot of money and it fueled a life that actually put them into depression and they ended up in a worse financial position, etc. So, what they thought was this positive situation ended up actually being the accelerant to a negative situation. Vice versa, there's plenty of things that happen where you think that there's a negative situation. I believe Mark Wahlberg was scheduled to be on one of the planes that flew into the towers on 9/11, but the day before, he had to move his flight. That's a perfect example of being frustrated that you’ve got to move something or change or there's some delay in your schedule, etc., but then it comes out that actually it was a blessing in disguise, the Chinese farmer being an easy way to always remember that lesson, right?

JAG: Anybody who missed their flight on those terrible, terrible, doomed flights, I guess might have been pretty pissed off at the gate, but obviously know that they were spared when we learned the fate of those passengers. So another lesson I really enjoyed was “become a magnet,” in which you told the story of actions you took to go from being a young investor who was having to make cold calls to entrepreneurs in whose companies you wanted to invest to changing that whole dynamic. So, how did you do it?

AP: Well, I think that anytime that you have an idea of something, but you don't know how to do it, the best way to learn is to start doing it. For me, the very first business I ever started, our desired customers were the owners of these small businesses. And we were sitting there, we had no clue what we were doing. We had no experience, we had no resources, and we had no work skills to fall back on. So, in our brains, if we wanted to sell to these small business owners, we should probably go somewhere where there are small business owners. So, we just went to the local shopping center and we walked into a business and we said, hey, is the owner here? Then we did the next one and the next one and the next one. And after a while, what we learned was we were essentially talking to customers. We were learning what they needed, what were their problems, how could we solve those problems. We were building the confidence to be able to handle rejection. We were building the sales skills that were needed to be able to walk into an environment where there's a lot of unknowns and be able to pitch quickly what we were doing and overcome objections and do all that stuff. I just think that sometimes the best experience is the experience you're about to get. And the way that you get it is just by doing the thing, even though you know you're probably not good at it. You’ve got to get started, and you can just think of it as practice for when you actually are going to be good.

JAG: Yes, but you also decided to find ways to market yourself, right? Start a podcast, start talking about these companies in which you'd like to invest. What was that like?

AP: Well, I think from that, it was not so much about marketing. I think it was much more about learning. And I talk in the book about the fact that I've hacked the idea of being able to learn from a lot of people. I basically say to them, hey, if you come and you sit down with me and you teach me everything, my trade for you, or the thing I'll do for you is I will record the conversation and I will send it out to as many people as possible to help you spread your ideas and to help share all the knowledge that you have. And it turns out that's a pretty attractive deal for a lot of people in today's day and age. So, it’s this idea that if you want something, you’ve got to be able to give something and the podcast is a great way to do that. Then obviously, the added benefit is that it builds this audience and people get to know me and they learn alongside me as well.

JAG: One of my very favorite lessons, and I hope that my staff is listening to this one, is to take work off your boss's deck. How did you learn that one, and what are some of the keys of getting it right or possibly getting it wrong?

AP: Yes, this was a hard lesson to learn because, frankly, when I first got started, I thought that everyone had an inclination of, okay, I've got a job, but how do I do as little as possible, but still get paid?

How do you become valuable? Well, you should probably become valuable to your boss first, and then over time, that value turns into value for the organization. And an easy way to do that is to constantly just take work off of your boss's desk.

And that's a really bad way to approach it. I remember having a conversation early on where somebody made the connection for me that the more valuable you are to the organization, the more you get paid. So, how do you become valuable? Well, you should probably become valuable to your boss first, and then over time, that value turns into value for the organization. And an easy way to do that is to constantly just take work off of your boss's desk. If you can do that over and over and over again, you'll be given more work, more responsibility, and ultimately that leads to more pay. But now you start to learn, you start to compound all that value. So, it was really out of necessity for how do I become valuable for an organization? Well, let me just start to make my boss's job a little bit easier.

JAG: When I was a senior vice president at Dole Food Company, working for David Murdoch, also a legendary investor, somebody who thought outside of the box, he was this billionaire and it would not be unusual to see him sweeping the halls of this magnificent headquarters or picking up something that had fallen, that reminded me of your lesson. Don't ask others to do anything you're not willing to do yourself. So, how did you use that lesson in your podcast production to motivate your team?

AP: Well, I think I learned this lesson actually in the military; I remember seeing leaders do things and thinking, why is so-and-so doing this? But it was more showing rather than telling. There's the story that I tell in the book that I had somebody who was working with me on the podcast. We were very, very aggressively recording, editing, and releasing podcasts. And they essentially got burnt out, right? They felt like, hey, I can't keep doing this. So, I said to them, don't worry, take a week off. I'll do everything that I normally do in a day in terms of my regular job and investing and supporting those companies, et cetera, and then I will edit the podcast. And I don't even think they thought I knew how to edit the podcast, let alone that I was going to do it. So, for an entire week, I did it every day, and got done for the day. I sat down and the first time's a little shaky. You’ve got to remember how to use some of the tools and all that, but I got it done. By the end of the week, it was pretty clear. If I can do my regular job and all the investing work, etcetera, and I can also edit the podcast every day, then you, if this is your full-time focus, you should probably be able to do this. And I think that was a clear sign of, if I'm going to ask you to do this, then I better be willing to do it. And being able to just show the capacity of work that's needed to be successful is a pretty good way to have somebody learn to emulate your actions.

JAG: The most famous line from Ayn Rand's novel The Fountainhead is when Ellsworth Toohey asks the architect Howard Roark, “We're alone here, why don't you tell me what you think of me?” And Roark replies, “But I don't think of you.” And that reminded me of your rule, “no one is thinking of you.” And it sounds a little harsh, but it's actually extremely liberating. So, unpack that for us.

Most people, they are always worried about what are they going to do, who's going to think what, how are people going to respond? And what you find is that most people are not thinking about you. Right? They have their own things that they've got going on in their life. Most people are thinking about themselves, not about you.

AP: I think most people, they are always worried about what are they going to do, who's going to think what, how are people going to respond? And what you find is that most people are not thinking about you. Right? They have their own things that they've got going on in their life. Most people are thinking about themselves, not about you. So, from that standpoint, you don't have to live a life of fear of what other people are going to do, say, etc. And I think that that is a pretty important data point or pretty important lesson for people to take away. You see this all the time in two different eras of someone's life. They may start out and they live through fear, right? But I always tell people that fear is a silent killer. It kills your dreams, it kills your ambition, it kills your action, it kills your motivation, it kills your enthusiasm. So, if you can learn to live without that fear and say, I don't care what other people think. I don't care if people like what I'm doing, don't like what I'm doing. I don't care if they think I'm stupid. I don't care if they think that I'm wrong. I'm going to do the things that I think are correct or the things that I want to work on or spend my time on. Then you end up in a situation where you live and you die or you succeed or fail with your actions, with your decisions, rather than having to live later on in life with regret. I thought that was the right thing to do, but it ended up not being the thing to do. Or I didn't do that because I was worried about what everyone else was going to think.

JAG: Yes, I think mastering the art of, frankly, not giving a damn is probably one of the most liberating life lessons that I learned. Because, then, you're also freed to take risks. I like to say at The Atlas Society, we take ideas seriously, but we don't take ourselves so seriously. And people ask, what is the secret to our creativity? With the graphic novels, music videos, and AI-animated book trailers, it's like we are willing to fall on our faces. Sometimes we do. Most of the time we don't. And the result can be pretty extraordinary. So again, your wife Polina, who has been on a previous episode of this podcast, helped to demonstrate to your children the value of one of your lessons, finish what you start.” So, share that story. That was pretty extraordinary.

AP: It's an incredible story, especially when it's your wife that's doing it. But, when she had her second kid, she wanted to come up with some sort of challenge as to something to look forward to, something to work towards. So she decided that she was going to run a half marathon. We had previously run a marathon together before, but she wanted to run a half marathon in New York City. So, long story short, she did a bunch of training, long runs. It was ready to go. And the day before the half marathon, her and I both got some sort of food poisoning. And we still debate to this day: Was it the pizza that I ordered or the sushi she ordered or whatever? But she got food poisoning, and there was no way that she was going to be able to run this thing. She and I both were condemned to bed. After we recovered, she said to me, there's no way that I did all that training, and I didn't finish. And in her mind, she wanted our children, even though they're very young, to see that their mom finishes the things that she starts. So the following Saturday, she went out into Central park and she ran a half marathon. There was no start area. There was no finish line. There was no audience. There were no water stations. There was none of that. But she went and she finished, and I brought the kids, and we found her where she was finishing, and we did a little celebration of just going out and making sure whatever you start, you finish. And, one, obviously proud of my wife, but also, two, more proud of the fact that she was willing to go through that to show our kids that you always finish the things that you start.

JAG: Was that marathon that you two ran before the one that you guys took in Greece?

AP: It was. We ran the original marathon.

JAG: How did that come about?

AP: Well, she knows me pretty well, and she asked me if I wanted to run the New York City Marathon. And I said, no, I’ve already seen all in New York. I don't need to run it. And she said, okay. And she came back to me a couple days later, and she said, well, what if every time someone brought up a marathon, you could say, well, you've never run the original marathon.

Okay, that's interesting. And then she told me that the original marathon was in Greece. You run from Marathon, Greece, to Athens. And her pitch to me was that the last six or seven miles were downhill. That sounds awesome. Sign me up. Let's do it. So, I took a red eye from Seattle, Washington, where I was speaking at a conference, to Greece. I land at, I don't know, 11–12 o'clock at night, I go to the hotel, I get her, we go run this thing. And about, I don't know, six, seven miles into the race, I realize that the reason why the last six or seven miles is downhill is because the middle miles are uphill.

You gotta go down the hill. And so we still laugh about it today, but it was quite the experience to be in another country and running up that hill with your wife and realizing, hey, I think I got tricked here.

JAG: I always thought these walking tours were ambitious, but you guys are in a whole other category when it comes to athletic adventures. So talk a little bit about the value of authenticity when applying any of these life lessons, whether it's calling a friend or asking people about themselves.

I think that authenticity and curiosity are one and the same when you're talking about conversations. If you are a curious person, people can feel that.

AP: Well, I think that authenticity and curiosity are one and the same when you're talking about conversations. If you are a curious person, people can feel that. If you are faking it, people can also feel that. So, if you want to be authentic, then be yourself. And for me, that is being highly curious. I went to lunch today with a gentleman who's been hyper-successful as an investor, and I think he was surprised at how many questions I had. I said to him, listen, if you don't want me to ask your questions, that's fine. You could tell me to stop. But the odds that I'm going to talk to somebody with your exact experience again, unless it is you, is very low. So, I want to make sure that I learned as much as I can from you. And this guy's a little bit older, and I think he appreciated the fact that I want to learn. We had a great conversation. And that doesn't happen unless he realizes, hey, this guy is actually being true to himself and authentic. People can feel if you're faking it.

JAG: Curiosity, I was looking at the bookshelf behind you, and I can see an hourglass and also statues. Tell us about those.

AP: The hourglass. . .

JAG: Is it practical or is it philosophical? Is it memento mori or. . .

AP: No, I used to, I used to actually have it sitting on our conference room table. And it was because I didn't want to look at my phone during the meeting. But it's exactly one hour and so I could turn it over or—I'm sorry, it's exactly 30 minutes and I could turn it over. And I knew when time was up because the hourglass actually worked, but people started to think I was weird doing that. So, it has been retired to the bookshelf, but that's actually why I got it. And then the two statues here are Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger. And there's a paradox of these two guys in my mind, which is they've obviously been incredible investors, but Warren Buffett in particular, not a great human being. If you look at them as incredible investors, they missed the best investment in the world in the last 15 years, which is Bitcoin. So constantly remembering that you can be great at one thing, but it's always the pursuit of being great in all aspects of life and not getting over-rotated in any one direction serves as a pretty strong reminder with those statues.

JAG: Well, I still have a lot more questions of my own, but the gang's going to get mad at me if I don't dip into their questions. First, a note of appreciation from Lock, Stock and Barrel who says, “Interesting book premise. I fully support writing letters of advice to our children. It's a practice that needs a revival today.”

And My Modern Galt, who was first into the gate with his comment said, “Great interview. Guest, Anthony, I see you on X. You support Bitcoin. What made you interested in crypto? In Bitcoin and crypto, I should make the distinction.”

What I think keeps people around is they begin to learn about the world, they begin to learn about sovereignty, they begin to learn about censorship, they begin to learn about anti-caesarship, they begin to learn about decentralization, economics and geopolitics and all these different components that touch Bitcoin.

AP: Yes, it's interesting because I think everyone becomes interested in Bitcoin or crypto for the same reason initially. They think they're going to make money. Capitalism works, free markets work, economic incentives work, individualism works, self-interest, all that stuff. What I think keeps people around is they begin to learn about the world, they begin to learn about sovereignty, they begin to learn about censorship, they begin to learn about anti-caesarship, they begin to learn about decentralization, economics and geopolitics and all these different components that touch Bitcoin. And So, it becomes intellectually stimulating. It begins to resonate with them from an identity or a worldview standpoint. But it really is that free market, individual self-interest, economic incentive that pulls people in originally. Then it's this path of converting essentially speculation into somebody who is a hardened long-term holder. But that takes time and that takes education. And so some people do it faster than others, but it really comes down to how quickly they understand Bitcoin.

JAG: So, I'm going to ask that we put the graphic of your book back up because we have Aldona saying, “Atlas Shrugged, the best book ever, but you must be ready to understand it.” But she is putting Anthony Pompliano's book on her list. I want to also recommend the audible version, and Anthony narrates it himself and does a pretty good job. So, in order to fuel a little healthy competition between the Pomplianos, I can highly recommend it.

So Candice Morena asks, “do you think college is something you want to push for your kids or do you want them to get their hands dirty, gain real world skills and experience? Are these things mutually exclusive?”

AP: It's a great question. I don't think that they have to be mutually exclusive in terms of college. My kids are young, they're both under the age of four, and so I think that's up to them if they want to go or not. It's nearly impossible for us to know what the world's going to look like then, so it'll be interesting to see how everything evolves. But, I want them to get experience now. I don't want them to wait till they're teenagers or college age, et cetera. They can get things done now. My daughter is three years old and I work on, “when you talk to someone, look at them, shake hands.”

If we go to the store, I hand her the credit card and I have her try to engage with the person. Obviously, she's three. It's not like she is going to be able to operate like a teenager or an adult. But what you're doing is you're essentially just slowly chipping away, making them comfortable, showing them that they can communicate with people, et cetera. And the beauty of having young kids is that you don't know what you don't know. This is my first time ever being a dad and so we'll see if it works. But seems so far to be heading in the right direction.

JAG: All right, Elation asks, “Anthony, what made you decide to go into investing? Are there any big lessons you've learned when it comes to the volatility of the market in recent years?”

AP: Well, investing, I think of it much more as an intellectual exercise than an economic one of how do you make as much money as possible? There are plenty of times when I know something will make money, but I just don't find it very interesting. And so, I won't invest.

So what seems to be a pretty good path is if you can figure out how to make money and learn at the same time. That's my dream scenario. So, as an investor, that is ultimately what I think I'm doing.

But, I think that the best investors I know and people I respect the most, they constantly look at it as a learning journey. So, if you can figure out what's the business model of learning, well, it’s investing. So what seems to be a pretty good path is if you can figure out how to make money and learn at the same time. That's my dream scenario. So, as an investor, that is ultimately what I think I'm doing.

JAG: Kingfisher21 asks, “Do you worry that the government is going to regulate Bitcoin or create a Fedcoin? A little more worried a couple months ago than today?”

AP: I don't think I've ever been worried about regulating Bitcoin. They're definitely going to regulate the people and the companies who touch Bitcoin just like they do the people in companies that touch dollars. The dollar is not regulated. It's an inanimate object.

But I do think that there's going to be rules. There already are rules. And I think that that's going to continue. In terms of competing, Jerome Powell literally today came out and said that he doesn't think Bitcoin competes with the US Dollar. He thinks that Bitcoin competes with gold. I think that that's pretty accurate and a good sign. Also, we saw Vladimir Putin in Russia come out and say that Bitcoin is something that's going to continue to grow. We've seen a number of politicians in the US, we see the incoming president of the United States talking about a Bitcoin strategic reserve. It's actually not a worry that they're going to be abrasive. I think that we are all underestimating how quickly the world is going to adopt this at the nation-state level. And that doesn't mean it's going to happen tomorrow. But, if everyone thinks it's going to happen in 10 years and it happens in three, then that would obviously be pretty incredible. It all just takes some time to work itself out. And so far the right people are talking about it, they're saying the right things, and I think that the government's going to end up embracing this technology.

JAG: So, I ended up investing in Bitcoin after I had Michael Saylor on the show and he convinced me, not necessarily technically, but I thought, I think this guy is pretty smart, maybe he knows something I don't. And now I find myself looking at my account and it's like, oh, it's going up, it's going down, it's obviously way up. And I'm looking at it thinking, oh, I'm going to wait for it to go down again before I buy more. Is that the wrong way to be thinking about it? Obviously not giving any investment advice here, but if I'm misguided, set me straight.

AP: Yes, well, I just think that it tells me what are you trying to accomplish? If you're trying to buy something today and sell it tomorrow, then you're going to try to time the market, right? You want to buy at a certain price, buy low, sell high. But if you are buying something that you're going to hold, use me as an example. I am planning to give my Bitcoin to my grandchildren. And so if that is the outcome that I am optimizing for, then it doesn't matter what price I buy it at. I should just be dollar cost averaging and buying more every so often. Because whether you bought Bitcoin at 50,000 or 55,000 doesn't matter when it was at 100. It's not going to matter when it's at a higher price than that. And so I think that it really just comes down to what is your time horizon. And if you have a long time horizon, then there's the saying, time in the market is more important than timing the market. And I tend to think that that's probably right.

JAG: All right, let's return to your book. You have a lesson: Carve your ethics in stone, but write your opinions in the sand. So I guess I'd like to step back and ask how does one develop one's ethics? For some people they're inherited from their parents or religion or tradition, but at least with regards to Objectivism, it's about understanding the role of reason, rationally thinking through one's long-term self-interest. Neither sacrificing oneself to others or sacrificing others to oneself. So, how do you think about ethics and how do you hope your children will arrive at theirs?

AP: I think that most of the ideas are time-tested, right? First, is just doing to others as you want done unto you. And that is a really, really strong thing that covers a lot when it comes to ethics. The second thing is, is there the ability to sacrifice yourself for the value of others? I always talk about this from a leadership perspective. Leadership is an act of service. You are serving the people that you are leading. Can you figure out how to do that? I always say that when my wife and I go to dinner, I will give a tip and whatever you think the amount is, add a couple of dollars, even $3, $5 to whatever you thought the tip should have been. And what I say to her is, it means more to that person than it means to me. And so it's this constant idea of just giving that ends up being a pretty good way to live your life. And I've never regretted it. And so if you can,  always end up on the side where if there's something in the middle of the table between me and you, I give it to you. Then I found in my life that there's always enough left for me or our companies, etc. And so giving actually is a way to put yourself in a better position and live a life that you're proud of.

JAG: Yes, the way Ayn Rand talks about it is that sacrifice is giving up something of a greater value for something of a lesser value or a non-value. And it's also about pursuing your self-interest in the long term. And if you are the kind of person that is constantly scrimping on tips or taking more than one's share, or just generally being all about oneself in the moment, that's not going to be very good for you in the long-term. And certainly being benevolent, being generous, having a reputation for being somebody like that is going to make you, again, more of a magnet for people in all kinds of relationships, personal and professional.

So, we are living through some remarkable times. And I can't let you get away without asking a few questions about where we are at right now. One thing over on X is that Marc Andreessen has really opened the floodgates with regards to the phenomenon of debanking, where regulators with a political agenda lean on banks to withdraw financial services from targeted companies or entrepreneurs. I want to know, is that something you've had any experience with either with one of your own companies or one of the many companies in which you've invested?

AP: Yes, we've had a ton of different experiences. I would say that there's really two different buckets in this: there's the actual debanking and then there's the wasting of time and energy by these organizations. We thankfully have been successful in thwarting the actual debanking attempts. But what that leads us to is the second bucket, which has just wasted an immense amount of time and energy. And so, we work with a number of different banks. Those banks work both personally and also commercially. And we've had problems across the board. Now it's one of these weird things where it's always hard to tell how specific and targeted and intentional versus is it just a bureaucratic system that is having automated checks, et cetera. But in our experience, the wasted time and effort is shown in meetings and emails and calls and meetings with the same people about the same thing over and over again for weeks and weeks and weeks.

It's just a huge drag on productivity of a company and a huge drag on productivity of the economy. And so, hopefully what we will get is a clear sense of what the rules should be, how they should be enforced, make sure that good actors are not getting caught up in this, and so minimize that drag or that friction; this would all end up being a net positive, I think, for the United States.

JAG: All right, also on X last week you posted that you used to say that none of your smartest friends wanted to work in the government, but that you also can no longer say that we've seen the Department of Government Efficiency call for applications from super– high-IQ hardworking disruptors. Is that what you were referencing? And then, also, if you would spend a little bit of time talking about what positive things you see as potentially coming out of this change in administration.

I see some of my friends in the technology industry are going to work in the incoming administration. People that I would never have thought would do that. Those are the types of individuals that I'm excited that they want to work in the government. I actually think something like the Department of Government Efficiency is going to become a high status role.

AP: I just think that business people tend to be no nonsense, very efficient, very quantitative, and ultimately very effective. When you bring those people into the government, they are very anti-bureaucratic, and that should end up being a net positive. In terms of my smartest friends, I've been blown away. I think in that specific tweet I was talking about hedge-fund portfolio managers, people who you would never think would ever have any interest whatsoever in being in the room with government employees, let alone want to work in the government. But many of them have reached out and asked if I can connect them with various people in the current, incoming administration, so that they could put their name in the hat for all kinds of different roles, things like the Department of Government Efficiency, all the way to random roles that I didn't even really expect. So, I see some of my friends in the technology industry are going to work in the incoming administration. People that I would never have thought would do that. Those are the types of individuals that I'm excited that they want to work in the government. I actually think something like the Department of Government Efficiency is going to become a high status role. If you worked at certain tech companies early on, that is seen as high status. If you went to a certain school, historically, it's been high status. Well, how or when was the last time that working at a certain government organization was high status? Maybe there's some intelligence organizations or certain units in the military or something like that. But I've never met someone who was deemed high status simply because they worked at the Department of Energy or they worked in the Department of Education instead. I think that the Department of Government Efficiency has the chance to potentially hit that situation. I think that would be great from a talent recruitment standpoint.

JAG: Are you tempted yourself to throw your hat in the ring for any potential role?

AP: No, I'm not interested whatsoever. I hope my smartest friends all go and do it. I'm happy to provide my opinion on certain topics or issues, but I'm very happy doing what I'm doing and have zero interest whatsoever.

JAG: All right, a couple more audience questions. Let's see. Alan Turner, a regular, says, “no plan survives first contact with the enemy.” What is your strategy to roll with the obstacles that can happen in life?

AP: Well, I just think that life is an obstacle in general. It's just a constant string of obstacles. So, you can either suffer from them or you can enjoy them. And, I think, one of the things that my wife and I have come to the conclusion of is there's two different types of life you can live. You can live an easy life or you can live a hard life. We've frankly lived both. And we enjoy the hard life. We enjoy living in New York City. We've got young kids. There's a very big density of ambitious, energetic people. There's a lot of really smart people. But there's also a lot of traffic. And, yeah, you can probably hear right now, there's a siren outside. And, all the things that go with that are not necessarily the quote-unquote, easy life. So, I think that separating out, “do you want to live an easy life or do you want to live a hard life?” is step one. In terms of that easy life, every obstacle you will see as difficult, if it is a hard life that you are pursuing, then you're not going to be worried whatsoever about those obstacles. You're actually going to somewhat expect them because you're living that quote-unquote, hard life.

JAG: One of the things that another lesson that you shared was—I don't remember the name of it, but—whenever something goes wrong or you get a disappointment, saying: good. So that your operation that you'd planned to go out and do with the military got canceled.

AP: Good.

JAG: It gives you more time to practice. So talk a little bit about that. Maybe how that mindset can help you roll with these potential obstacles or disappointments that come up.

If you lost your job, good. You’ve got more time to go and get another one. If you didn't get the funding that you wanted, good. That means you’ve got more time to go and refine your product. If you end up not getting the promotion, good. That gives you more time to get more experience in the role that you are in. And you just think everything that happens in your life, good, good, good.

AP: I can't take any credit for this. This is all Jocko Wilnick, who is a former Navy SEAL commander. But it's just fantastic. The way he described it, he said, look, if you lost your job, good. You’ve got more time to go and get another one. If you didn't get the funding that you wanted, good. That means you’ve got more time to go and refine your product. If you end up not getting the promotion, good. That gives you more time to get more experience in the role that you are in. And you just think everything that happens in your life, good, good, good. It really puts you in a mindset that again, gives you agency, allows you to be the person who is in control, and it doesn't allow you to become susceptible to whatever happens to you. You're acting on the world, the world isn't acting on you.

JAG: Another question from Lock, Stock and Barrel, going back to our previous conversation about ethics, he's asking, “Anthony, have there been moments in your life when your principles, your ethics were tested; was there ever the temptation for quick gains at the expense of your values and your integrity?”

AP: I don't think that there was necessarily a clear, black-and-white trade-off like you can get quick gains, but you’ve got to give up your values or your ethics. I do think that there's obviously many times in my life where maybe it's not even necessarily testing. It's just the world is going to force you to reveal to yourself who you are. Some people think of that as testing ethics or your values. I think of it as if you have a good sense of what your ethics are and your view on the world, then in those moments, you just exhibit them. It's not a test. It's just, hey, this is who I am. Regardless of the situation, I believe A, B and C to be true. And regardless of what happens, I still believe A, B and C to be true. And so, I think of those situations more as revealing what your ethics are more than testing them. Because I think when you get into testing, that mindset is very much like, oh well, just this one time I can cheat on the test and then every other time I'll be okay. But if you think of it as revealing who you are, once you become somebody who has no ethics, then that's who you are, right? There's no really going back. You don't switch back and forth between having ethics and not, but you can definitely cheat on a test. And so I think that the mindset that it is revealing really will help you always do the right thing.

JAG: You also posted recently about Michael Saylor's recent new 5.4 billion dollar purchase of Bitcoin, saying that you have to respect his conviction to play big. He was our gala honoree back in late 2022 at a time when Bitcoin was frankly cratering and he was making no apologies. You weathered that time as well. And you've argued that Bitcoin teaches the value of long-term thinking. How so?

Don't try to trade, don't go after the shiny things. Simply think longer term and stay focused on just acquiring more Bitcoin or holding, those types of activities, I think, are a much, much, much better situation to put yourself in.

AP: Well, I think that if you buy an asset that is going to go up and down in volatility, that can trick you or incentivize you to be short-term in your thinking. The people who are short-term thinking in this asset usually do not win. They usually end up on the wrong side. If you're trading, if you're timing markets, all this stuff is very, very hard because it's very volatile. As for the people who have long-term thinking, you buy the asset and I think that if you bought it and held it for four years, at any point in the time of the asset, you've ended up with more dollar value to your Bitcoin than when you bought it. If you think about that, it incentivizes you to not try to outsmart the market. Don't try to trade, don't go after the shiny things. Simply think longer term and stay focused on just acquiring more Bitcoin or holding, those types of activities, I think, are a much, much, much better situation to put yourself in.

JAG: So, you've also said that you think people underestimate what a role model Elon Musk has become to young people. Do you feel perhaps more optimistic about a new wave of inventors and startups. I've interviewed other experts on generational change and, unfortunately, they said that one of the things that they saw as more prominent in Generation Z was fear and also a lack of a sense of agency.

What's been your experience with either the young people that have worked for you or just your general sense of where we're going?

AP: I think everyone, whether you're a man or a woman, you need role models. I had great role models and it worked out pretty well for me. So, in today's society, if I said to you point to the best role models for a young man or a young woman, there are some, but I think that we need more. Elon Musk, in particular, he's the world's richest man. He is working on cool things in the eyes, specifically, of young men. He's building rockets, he's building cars, he's building brain-computer interfaces, he's building tunnels, he's running Twitter, et cetera. And then I think, also, there's a lot of people who look up to the idea of if you have FU money, if you never say FU, then they think, ah, you're just a corporate drone. And obviously Elon has been very outspoken about a number of different topics he cares about. So, if you said to me, who are the best role models for young men? Having somebody who is literally trying to usher in a world of better energy, rockets, brain-computer interfaces, all these things that he's working on, that sounds like the right person. If you create value for society, then you should get the economic reward. If you create the most value, then you should get the most economic reward, which is what he's done. The system is working. And I think showing that to young people is a really valuable thing.

JAG: Yes, I do think he is a role model in many, many ways. And we frequently praise him at The Atlas Society, but as a role model, I was disappointed when he, in his first, I think it was his first interview with Joe Rogan, decided that it would be a good time to light up a big, marijuana cigar (or whatever it was) because people do look up to him. And normalizing something that is generally probably not good for you and potentially has risks, that was a bit of a disappointment.

So, you seem to have a good natured back-and-forth with gold bug, Peter Schiff. Is there a place for gold in a Bitcoin future or how do you view that asset?

AP: I think that gold and Bitcoin both benefit from the same thing, which is that the dollar is going to be devalued or debased.

We've got to monetize the debt and the politicians don't seem to be interested in stopping printing money. So, if you're going to devalue the currency, then real estate is going to go up, stocks are going to go up, gold's going to go up, Bitcoin is going to go up. When you specifically look at gold and Bitcoin, although they both are going to go up, I think of Bitcoin as gold with wings. Bitcoin is just more sensitive to global liquidity and currency debasement. And so if you like gold, you're going to love Bitcoin, is my general sentiment.

JAG: All right, well, here we are wrapping things up. I am on the west coast, you're on the east coast and I know you've got a lot of things to do, but maybe we'll just close with what is the one question I haven't asked, but should have asked?

AP: Well, maybe I could ask you a question which is, what's your version of an extraordinary life?

JAG: I think it's one in which I am being productive, in which I'm overcoming challenges, in which I am helping to create a world in which I want to live. And that's why I feel like it's such a privilege to be working at The Atlas Society and promoting the ideas of Ayn Rand, of individualism, of rationality, of long-term self-interest, like you said, that have certainly transformed my life, have saved me a lot of grief and I think have the potential to change the lives of young people around the world and just help us accelerate to a more abundant future. So that's what I consider extraordinary. Of course, being surrounded by fantastic, non-boring people doing amazing things— It makes the journey worthwhile.

AP: I think that's a fantastic answer.

JAG: All right, well again, Anthony, thank you. Jury's out on whether or not you manage to surpass your wife's extraordinary performance on The Atlas Society Asks. But we'll be curious to see how the book sales go. And again, folks, I really recommend this as something that you could actually read with your own children, and maybe it'll inspire you to write down some lessons of your own. So thanks again, Anthony.

AP: Thank you so much for having me.

JAG: And thanks to all of you for joining today, especially our regulars. As always, if you enjoyed this podcast or any of our other content: materials, programming, I hope—hey, it's just one day past Giving Tuesday, so go over to atlassociety.org forward/donate and put a tip in the tip jar.

I will look forward to seeing everyone next week when we have author Naomi Wolf returning to The Atlas Society Asks to discuss her latest book, The Pfizer Papers, Pfizer's Crimes Against Humanity. See you next week.

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